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Local Environment Heroes
Local Environment Heroes brings you a series of chats with amazing local heroes from Canberra and further afield who are doing ace things for our world.
This podcast is produced and supported by the Canberra Environment Centre, including hosts Julie Boulton, Jennifer Pinkerton, Ryan Lungu and Fiona Veikkanen.
Local Environment Heroes
Season 4, Episode 3: Mark Howden — What Has Changed, What Hasn’t, and What Keeps Us Going
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In this episode of Local Environmental Heroes, we talk with Emeritus Professor Mark Howden AC about the long game of climate action — and what it feels like to spend almost four decades working on one of the biggest challenges facing the world.
Mark reflects on what's changed since he first became involved in the climate movement, what has stubbornly stayed the same, and the levers he believes can help shift us (and Canberra!) towards meaningful action.
We talk about the frustrations of working in the climate change space, the moments that provided encouragement, and the people and experiences that kept Mark engaged over the years. We also explore how change happens — and why, despite the setbacks, Mark still sees reasons for optimism.
Season Four Hosts: Jennifer Pinkerton and Julie Boulton
Sound editing: Will Tinapple, Formation Studios
Partners: SEE Change & Conservation Council of the ACT Region
Local Environment Heroes is a Canberra Environment Centre podcast celebrating the people working to create a healthier, more sustainable and connected community.
Find out more and get involved: canberraenvironment.org
Follow the Canberra Environment Centre on Facebook and Instagram for upcoming events, workshops, and stories from our community.
Thanks for listening; environmental change starts with people. 🌱
Hi everyone, and welcome to Local Environmental Heroes, the podcast where we speak with standout Canberrans who are helping create a more sustainable future for our communities and our planet. Today, Julie and I are thrilled to be joined by Emeritus Professor Mark Howden, AC. Mark is one of Australia's most respected climate scientists. He's vice chair of the Intergovernmental Panel of Climate Change, the IPCC. And until recently, he's director of ANU's Institute for Climate, Energy and Disaster Solutions. Over almost four decades, Mark has worked across climate science, adaptation, mitigation, and policy, helping governments, industries, and communities understand both the risks of climate change and the opportunities that come from responding to it well. But actually, what sets Mark apart most and turns him into a Canberra climate hero in my eyes is his ability to keep communicate complex climate science with clarity, honesty, and optimism. As well as the way Mark lives his own environmental values, whether it's growing his own veggies and adapting his house to riding his bike everywhere and protecting a patch of forest that he loves from weeds like Lantana. Mark, welcome to Local Environmental Heroes. Again.
SPEAKER_00Hi there. It's great to be here.
SPEAKER_02Hi, Mark. It is, as Jen just said, again, because this is your second time on the podcast. You were actually one of our first guests, the second guest I worked out before on the very first season of the podcast. So everyone, you can go back and listen to all of the previous episodes of this podcast on the CEC website. And that interview was almost five years ago to the day. It's five, just shy of one month. It was July around July 27th, 2021. Gosh, I know. We're all shaking our heads here, people, going, that is how did that, where did that time go? So a lot has changed since that very first episode, but then some things are still the same. And maybe some things are even going backwards, Mark. So Mark, we wanted to start with kind of a reflection back on the past few years. And I know that now you're in semi-retirement. And so that's that's kind of a big change. But one question we've got in our minds is can you ever really retire from climate work?
SPEAKER_00No, I don't think so. Is that I've over the years I've actually um thought, wouldn't it be nice if we'd solve the climate problem and I could go off and do other things with my life? But it just hasn't quite worked out like that. And so really, for the foreseeable future, and we're talking multiple decades here, we're going to be dealing with the climate change uh challenges that we're storing up now and that we seem to be hell-bent on propagating out into the future. And so so I I don't see this as something that I or anyone who's alive now is actually going to outlive.
SPEAKER_02Yeah. Yeah. And so five years ago, that's that's what you would have thought also. And what do you think in these five years since we originally spoke to you? Do you think things have continued to go along the trajectory you predicted back then? Have things changed or have things even gone backwards?
SPEAKER_00Five years ago, I would have had some hope that we might have turned the the big ship around, you know, the greenhouse gas emissions production ship and and started on the downhill sort of trajectory. And and what and what we've seen is quite the opposite. We continue to break greenhouse gas emission records at a global scale. And and that's been generating even faster change than we anticipated. So change in extreme events, changes in sea level rise, etc. And so so in some ways, I think I'm slightly less hopeful now than I was five years ago. And and and I guess that's actually driven by sort of experience. It's not been driven by, you know, any lack of, you know, information. It's not driven by a lack of goodwill by many people or by the substantial action that many people are taking to reduce greenhouse gas emissions. It's actually driven by the reality that our fossil fuel companies and governments and individuals are very much wedded to the way things were, which is very fossil fuel dependent. And it's been harder to shift that than I anticipated.
SPEAKER_01Mark, that's something that you mentioned last night at Impact Hour. Just listen to the recording. And I found that quite frustrating. Like you mentioned all the amazing work that's happening on an individual level. So uptake of rooftop solar, of home batteries, of EVs, but then the fact that we're doing really very little to curb emissions from industry. And you mentioned coal mining and agriculture in particular. That's very frustrating when you're trying to do your bit. And I'm wondering sort of what advice you give to people on trying to shift that when, as you also mentioned, there's kind of a lack of political leadership. So where where are the levers for change here with that inequity in action or where action's happening?
SPEAKER_00Well, there's a discernible strategy to push down climate action and climate guilt to produce that action onto individuals. And and to some extent, that's a not unreasonable thing because we all produce greenhouse gas emissions in our lives, and there's often ways of reducing those without reducing quality of life. The the challenge, though, is that that's really a strategy that takes the eye off the key thing, which is responses by governments through policy and responses by industry. And and so I often say that we really need to be as individuals pushing back up into government and up into industry, saying we want more and we want better. And because all of the individual actions themselves, even if everyone was of goodwill and wanted to take action and had the capacity to take action, all of that does not add up to the change that we need. And so the only way you get that is by changing the environment in which we make decisions and changing the options for our decisions through, you know, products with lower greenhouse gas footprints, et cetera.
SPEAKER_02I had a question from the audience last night. So just again referencing we had Impact Hour last night where Mark was our guest speaker, and people will be able to find the recording of Impact Hour up on our website as well. And I had great chats with the audience who were very engaged last night, wanting to everyone was lining up to speak to Mark afterwards. So if this question didn't get to you, it got to me. And I went, I don't know, you have to ask Mark. So does government seek Mark's expertise out? Are they coming to Mark saying, can you provide us advice on this? And I I mean, I don't know the answer, but I mean, well, I guess you know, Mark can put his hand up, but it's whether or not government is interested, perhaps, and open to what Mark has to say. Mark, how how do you find um government today? Are they interested and open and coming to you for advice and questions? Or are they perhaps it's okay, we've got this under control, Mark, we know what we're doing. And then how do you how do you also continue to offer your thoughts and opinions into government? Is that an avenue that you are actively looking to engage with?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, well, so so thanks, Julie. So my engagement with governments of different persuasions has gone up and down. So at times it's been much more significant than at others, and particularly significant when I've had roles such as being the chair of the ACT Climate Change Council, you know, gave me a much more significant sort of entry point to discuss with the ACT government. And and at various times I've had similar sort of roles, advisory roles with the federal government and state governments as well. So when you've got that sort of formal role, it makes it sort of easier to have more regular engagement with the different arms of government. And but separate from that is that when I was working at ANU, we'd regularly offer all parties briefings on matters to do with climate change and energy. And as you could imagine, some parties were much more open to taking up those invitations than others, and and and some never took up those invitations. And so that was, I I think, a useful thing to do. But I did notice that uh there was a tendency for more, in a sense, demand for engagement and information prior to elections, whereas post-election it it tended to close down. And I think that comes into that element that you mentioned, Julie, where you know the governments want their once they've got the wills in motion and they've got the public service sort of working effectively, then they're pretty much in that everything's okay. We've got everything under control mode that you mentioned. So I think there are, you know, it it goes up and down with cycles and it goes up and down with sort of mechanisms for engagement.
SPEAKER_02How important is it though, the engagement with government? So last night, again, you were speaking to a room of fairly informed citizens, I'd say. Is your is the action then, you know, and we we deliberately called that hour of you giving out information impact hour? And I was thinking last night a lot about impact and how do you create? I mean, I think we all question this, how do you create impact and what sort of impact are we having? Like speaking to a room full of informed citizens is great and awesome, and that definitely was impactful last night. What is the impact those citizens can then go on to have?
SPEAKER_00I think there's a couple of things here. One is that having an informed citizenry is fundamental to an effective democracy, in my view. And and so it worries me where I see that element of you know, degree of misinformation and disinformation which is circulating across our our um population is actually a real problem. And and so finding ways to to engage with people directly, to answer their concerns fairly directly is is, I think, an important part of the role of someone like me. But I I can only do so much. What I think is be really good is if we had mechanisms such as parties who were engaged in climate change could engage with with people like me and others who can talk to large numbers and and essentially train the trainer. So we actually have multiplying sort of impacts through those mechanisms. So, for example, sort of voices for Canberra type groups who uh are looking to sort of enhance the democratisation of our politics. So that's one mechanism. And in terms of the you know, coming back to the dealing with politicians, etc., and and being able to engage with those politicians, I actually think that's really, really crucial because they have that ear chewed by industry and by industry lobbyists, by sort of partisan groups, particularly ones which are have funding underpinned by some of the you know very deep pockets of individuals. And and they get exposed to a huge amount of perspectives and sometimes misinformation and disinformation from those groups, and there needs to be a countervoice. And and the challenge is that countervoice is actually much, much less organized, much more fragmented, much less well resourced. So we're actually ending up with a very biased set of sort of exposures by our politicians and parliamentarians because of those factors. So we actually do need root and branch restructuring of access by lobbyists to our policymakers and and politicians, because I think otherwise we're going to start to lose our democracy in ways that, for example, the US has lost theirs.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, these are they're quite invisible to everyday people, aren't they? All these threads of influence that make up the picture of why we're not addressing climate in in the way that we need to.
SPEAKER_00That's right. And so so you only know about this when when people sort of add up the numbers of lobbyist visits, for example, and and people like David Pogwok then call that out. And so that's when it becomes visible to people, and that's where we can start to leverage concern.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. If we chat about young people for a moment, I know you've got a number of them in your own in your own household. What sort of misinformation, disinformation are they getting in like their social media feeds, for example? How how pervasive is it?
SPEAKER_00I couldn't tell you. I don't look at their social media feeds, and so I can't really answer that one. But but it is pervasive. And we just had had you know recently the parliamentary inquiry on this, which showed not just that misinformation and disinformation was pervasive, but it was actually almost like now industrial scale of misinformation and disinformation. So, you know, very well-resourced, very strategic programs of of information and disinformation coming into Australia with the explicit intent, it would seem, of disrupting sort of political life, of dividing Australians and so that they fight against each other rather than actually starting to address the big issues, which are the important issues. And so that inquiry did start to paint out, and I think it's just the start of a really deep problem that we have here in Australia and elsewhere in the world, where where our democracies are at risk because of this information sort of malaise that we've got.
SPEAKER_01Sometimes it's really explicit. I was going to like a women in the environment sector event about a month ago. And as I was driving up to the airport, the departures area at Canberra Airport, you know, at 5 a.m. or whatever, whatever it was, I noticed that the fossil fuel companies had taken out all the billboards with things like when Australia's productivity drops, you know, the country stalls and sort of yeah, other things like that, which I mean, there's obviously sort of big money behind that. On the young people thing, Mark, I'm wondering about climate anxiety, you know, that I'm feeling really strongly in that example that I give you, but that a lot of young people feel. What do you say to people who are feeling very anxious about these issues? Is there something that you that you tend to offer when someone comes to you in that way?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, so so the first the first thing I do is listen and acknowledge their concerns and and and validate those concerns because that's exactly what the science says. You know, those concerns are valid. They're they're supported by an immense amount of of research and and evidence and data. And so so that's the first step. Then if in those concerns they've identified, you know, they've actually expressed something which is wrong, you know, so demonstrably incorrect, I would engage with them and say, why did you say that? And what was the basis of this? And and in fact, sort of then portray an alternative which is evidence-based. And then I'd sort of start to talk about, well, what can they do, which is, you know, sort of constructive and and that can allay some of those concerns. Because, you know, one of the things we we've learned from psychology is that anxiety can of that type can often be dealt with by people taking action. And so so when people do respond effectively in terms of you know their own lives to something, you know, that might reduce greenhouse emissions or that it might sort of adapt and reduce risk in the future. When they take that, they actually feel empowered. So instead of being out of control, you know, the world pushing in on them, they're starting to push back on the world and they're actually starting to take control of parts of their life. And and that's actually a really important step where people start to recognize that they do have power, that they do have agency, and that expressing that agency will actually make them feel much better, more capable, and that allows them to express even more agency. And so it's a feedback system.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02I think part of it too, I I wonder, um, I have so many questions tied up in this one question. So there might be multiple questions here. A bit of it is about every job today. I feel and a lot of people are saying every job is a climate job. Like every job has some aspect or element of climate to it. And I think for some of our younger listeners, like you know, high school, end of high school, university listeners, Mark. I think for them, if we could, if you could share a little bit of your journey, like when you started out, I mean, okay, it was 10 years ago when you began your climate journey, let's say. But you probably wouldn't have mapped out this perhaps journey of great influence that you've had. And I think it's inspiring for young people to hear from you and go, well, okay, every job now is a climate job, but there are so many different pathways and so many different avenues and options and things that you can take to have a career in this space. Could you talk a little bit to our young people about your journey?
SPEAKER_00Yeah, I I I can. And and just to reflect on their comment is that, you know, in a sense, every job is a is a climate-related job, just like, you know, everything we do is affected by climate or affects climate one way or the other. And so recognising that that you know immense complexity of climate is is both um for some people it's a barrier to action because you know it's so big and so complex. What can I do? Is what people ask. But on the other hand, it actually means that there's a huge number of leverage points and entry points that people can have that actually make a difference. And and so I'd prefer to think about the second approach. And in terms of my own journey, is that you know, we're we're all, in a sense, you know, children of our circumstances. And and a couple of the things that happened when I was young was the the burgeoning environmental movement in Australia and elsewhere, and so I was influenced by that. We also had the oil price spikes back in the in the 70s, where all of a sudden people realized that you know oil was a source of insecurity, not a source of security, and uh oil it was a source of economic disruption rather than one of economic stability. And so then all of a sudden we started to explore only temporarily, as it turned out, alternatives and and and starting to downsize our cars, you know. So they stand at hold and went from a six-cylinder to a four-cylinder car at that point, because to save petrol. And so, so, you know, like that, that gave me a keen idea of energy security. And at that time, the very first solar photovoltaic research was happening in Sydney University, and and I and I thought, wow, what a fantastic thing for Australia to engage in. And you know, for all the reasons we know, you know, massive amounts of sunshine, etc., it just was a no-brainer to me. And so I sort of engaged in that sort of energy transition sort of ideas very early. And when I went to university, I actually started off at university doing chemical engineering. It took me two weeks to figure out I actually didn't want to become a chemical engineer. And so I'd sort of drifted into that because it seemed like a good job, it matched up with my capabilities, you know, future prospects seemed okay. And so I sort of drifted into it without actually asking, did this match up with my values? And that was the thing, you know, like after two weeks, I actually figured this did not match up with my values. And I'm I'm not putting down chemical engineers, I'm just this is about me, not about them. And and so I said, Well, what do I want to do with the rest of my life? You know, that classic question. And and that was when I was 18 and and so 18, 19 sort of thing. And so I I actually sort of asked that question about, well, when I'm roughly my age, you know, when I'm at retirement age, you know, what do I want to be doing and what do I want to have achieved? And and when I looked forward, I actually saw that there was going to be a fundamental conflict between human development needs and the environment. And I said to myself, I want to be there in that interface and trying to help, and trying to help resolve those things. And it wasn't more sophisticated or directed than that. It was just this very broad general idea that that I said, okay, that's where I want to go. And so every time I made a career decision, or you know, what I'd do at university, it was zigzagging towards that goal. And so there's, you know, and I what I've learned is there's no direct lines when it comes to your career. It's all about zigs and zags. But every every step, I was trying to actually head towards that goal. And so that's been, in a sense, the guiding light in my career. And and and I and I still surprise myself that I was actually that sensible when I was acting on 19 years.
SPEAKER_02Well, I think I think that's yeah, it's very profound, actually. Like you almost you were dismissive of yourself almost then in saying, oh, I just kind of thought something to do with sustainable development and climate. But back then, I think not not again saying that you are extremely old, but but that that would have been quite novel because last night, again, something I took away from last night is that you made the point that it's becoming, well, the point that I took away from you, it's becoming increasingly difficult to separate out climate work from justice work. And I think that that that nexus has become very clear, especially in the last five years. I don't think it would have been that clear or that upfront 30 odd years ago to talk about the links between sustainable development and justice and climate. So could you talk just a little bit about how these links between climate and justice are so and fairness are so interwined, intertwined at the moment?
SPEAKER_00That's an incredibly complex sort of topic, Julie. But but what what we see emerging is after a period post Second World War and in the 70s. Where we we actually started to get on top of issues like equity and injustice. So, you know, there was more equity or equality in terms of incomes. And so, you know, the diff difference between the very wealthy and the poor was smaller. And we had the burgeoning of social and environmental programs which addressed in various ways equity concerns and sustainability concerns as well. But what we've actually seen over the last couple of decades, particularly, is that inequity in our society becoming structural and becoming extraordinary, you know, with the announcement of the first trillionaire in the globe. And if you think about the disparity between the wealth of that one individual versus the needs of the billions across the globe, you know, it's it's pretty clear that that inequity is now stark and and you know uh uncontestable in a way. And so so what we see when we we look at sort of climate change in that sort of lens that there's this you know underlying set of changes in our societies, change just adds to it. So it's in a sense an equity multiplier or an inequity multiplier. And so climate change impacts mostly on the disadvantaged people, the poor people, the people who aren't well, the people in developing countries. It it impacts more on women than on men, on the young and old than the people in between. It impacts differently across generations. So the consequences of climate change that I will experience versus my grandchildren will experience are very, very different. So there's that intergenerational inequity. And there's also inequities in terms of you know there's a the human versus non-human systems. And so so we see inequities in that, you know, through species extinction or shrinking of of ranges of of species or reductions in populations of of species. And so so we're seeing that play out in many different ways. And in a sense, all of those things make us poorer as humans. Um it doesn't make us richer as human beings, it might make us wealthier in terms of dollars in our banks, but it doesn't actually make us richer as human beings. And I think we should be thinking much more about what it is to be a healthy and wealthy human being rather than focusing on the finances.
SPEAKER_01That's a beautiful point, Mark. Um shouldn't we get to our end of podcast questions, or is it a bit too soon, Jules?
SPEAKER_02I just have one more question for before we get to the end of them. Okay, so last night we had like a loose topic called climate reality, climate hope. And you gave us a great talk about that was exploring the realities of where current emissions trajectories are taking us, but the real reasons for optimism that still exist. And I did have someone come up to me afterwards and say, just I'm I'm just not sure whether I'm hopeful or not hopeful. I think I just don't know. And they wanted to come up, and I hope they did come up to you and ask you at the end, what is the one thing that gives you hope right now in the climate space? So if they didn't ask you, I'm asking on their behalf. What what is this one like the one thing, Mark, that you can point to that we should all feel hopeful about looking forward?
SPEAKER_00Can I give you two answers on this one?
unknownYeah, of course.
SPEAKER_00So so so one of them is a much more sort of techno sort of thing, and that is the renewable energy transition is a source of hope. And so the solar panels, wind, etc., battery storage are becoming so much cheaper so quickly that it's just inevitably that it's going to chase out most of the dirty fuel sources that causing climate change. And and and that would have happened in the absence of climate change simply because they're so much better than what we've got from the fossil fuel versions. So that's one source of hope is that the simple economics of of renewables and storage uh will you know eventually change our system. It won't change it quick enough, it seems, to stop major parts of climate change. And it won't solve it all completely because there's other greenhouse gas emissions which are separate from our energy system emissions. Think agriculture, for example. So that's one source of hope, is that you know we've got that happening. The other one is that when I talk with young people is that they are intensely interested in climate change. They want to know, you know, what's happening, why is it happening, what they can do about it, why is are the things that make sense to do about it not being done? So what are the barriers and limits to action? And they're asking for more education on climate change. So at the moment, climate change is effectively invisible in our national school curricula. And you'd ask why that should be. And and that's what young people are asking. They're saying we want to be educated, we want to be informed on this. And so that desire for information and that then desire to take action is actually, I think, a great source of hope because they're the ones who are going to live with the world that we're going to make decisions about over the next decade. So the things that we do over the next decade will rebound for centuries. And so those young people need to be up front, they need to step up, they need to speak up, and they need to take action because unfortunately, some of the older generation won't.
SPEAKER_01Yeah, great. Thank you. Wonderful to see that your daughter, Marguerite, came along with you last night, Mark. What's it like for her to see you speak on these issues that matter to her generation so much? She must be. I know it's probably it's so humble that I know you won't answer this one in the way that I would like you to. But did she enjoy the night? Was she proud of you?
SPEAKER_00Yes. So she she enjoyed it. She said, I I've I've I've got to go back to those because they're really fun, they're really informative. She took pictures of me and she sent them around to the you know family WhatsApp group sort of thing. And so I think she was proud. She actually said to me that I answered some of those questions really well, with the implication that I didn't answer some of them all that well. But that's what family's for is you know, your best critics. And so, so no, I think I think she she felt pretty proud of me. And and you know, I know she's she's told me that before, as have my other children, you know, they um probably at times are embarrassed by me, but but you know, overall I think they they think that I've you know done a pretty good job.
SPEAKER_01That's awesome. You must be their environmental hero, which is a very cheesy segue into our question, Mark, about your environmental heroes. And she already started some digging around. Have jewels did Mark it. I do, yes. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02And I I feel I feel this is a bit unfair for Paul Mark because Mark's the our only, well, hopefully not will not be our only, but he's the first guest we've had returned to the podcast. So we have answers that we can go back to, Mark, to have a look at what you said five years ago. So we asked you years ago who are your environmental heroes. Can you remember what you said?
SPEAKER_00No, I can't.
SPEAKER_02So you're all-time heroes. It'll give you a hint there's that you've got them somewhere in your house on the wall. Does that have okay?
SPEAKER_00No, well, well, I've got I've got a thing from Barack Obama from a wall. Okay. So there you go. So one tick, but I can't remember the other one.
SPEAKER_02So well, really quickly, like you've got so you have apparently in the Nobel Prize is framed on the wall also. Is that correct?
SPEAKER_00Yep, that's right. Yeah.
SPEAKER_02So you'd said you'd said last time that your all-time heroes include Nelson Mandela and Barack Obama, and you talked about how you had a signed letter of thanks from Barack Obama, and the kids, your kids, thought that the that letter from Barack Obama is way cooler than the Nobel Braves.
SPEAKER_00Absolutely.
SPEAKER_02But what you also said is that so you said both both of Nelson and Barack have top billing for you in terms of overall status, but you also said that leadership can come from anyone anywhere. And people who are leading positive change in their own domains and not expecting anything for it are also your environmental heroes. So you can keep the answer as is, or is there anything you'd like to change five years on about your environmental heroes?
SPEAKER_00That's a bit embarrassing, Julie, but uh the absolutely that that statement of leadership can come from anywhere, as as can wisdom can come from anywhere. Like this is not not the sort of purview of the politicians or the highest paid people. So I absolutely agree with that one. If we sort of change the the language from sort of broad, you know, heroes, you know, so Mandela and Obama, to more strictly environmental heroes. So narrowing that down, I I was sort of probably thinking more David Attenborough because of how he's influenced people's, you know, awareness of the natural environment and the beauty of the natural environment. But here in Australia, I think Bob Brown for being brave early on in those you know early days of environmental activism in Australia and and how he's stayed the course, you know, like his he's remained true to his his own guiding light. And so so I respect that. And even though some of the things he did are probably not the things I would choose to do, but but each we we all have different voices speaking into a complex domain like climate change, and we're better off for having many, many different voices and approaches to this. And so so those are my two, you know, one a global and one a local hero. And and I should also have a bit of a shout out to to one of my neighbours, Shane Rattenbury, who who is a bit of an environmental hero, I think, here in the ACT. Uh him and his colleagues really put the ACT on the forefront of sort of environmental policy at a global scale. And so the things that we've done here in the ACT with going 100% renewable, way ahead of pretty much everyone else, uh, due to their vision and their ability to prosecute that vision.
SPEAKER_01Yeah. Great, Mark. Next one is congratulations, you're president of the world. What is one change that you'd implement right away?
SPEAKER_02And I'll just I'll just jump in again, in that you have also answered this question. And so again, but this um it really ties in so nicely with what you were just saying about David Outenborough and others who have really focused on building that respect and um deep appreciation for the natural world. Because again, last time when you answered this question, you did say, and it's a slightly unfair question, and I totally get your point when you answered this last time, that if you if we asked you this two dozen times, you will get two dozen different answers, because it does very much depend on what you're feeling at the time, I think. But if you you said back then, um, if I could generate respect, that's what you would be after, respect for each other and respect for the planet. And again, riffing off what you've just said then, respect for the different societies that we have constructed that respond to different values because it's all about acknowledging difference and resolving difference, which again I think is beautiful and perhaps could stand today. But feel free to change your answer.
SPEAKER_00No, but what I was going to say was similar to that, and so I'll stick with what you've said because it was a bit a better framing than I'd thought of just before. But I'd I'd add a couple of extra things if if I was a sort of you know global president and you know, an autocrat with all of that implications there. Probably two things which are pertinent. One is I'd actually put a price on greenhouse gas emissions which is global in its extent. And so we have all of the power of market forces driving down greenhouse gas emissions and finding better ways to provide the goods and services that we need for our lives. And and we know that prices on greenhouse gas emissions work in a policy context. At the moment, they're only applied at national or sub-national levels, and and that leaves loopholes for people to wriggle out of it. And so by putting it globally, you remove those loopholes. Secondly, that inequity element that we've talked about is actually really problematic, I think, for our future. And if I was global president, I would ensure that the very wealthy paid their fair share of tax and there was no loopholes for them to wriggle out. Because at the moment, the the wealth that used to be delivered to nations is now being pocketed by the few. And and that's why we don't have the education systems and the defense systems and transport systems and you know uh etc. that we're used to because we've actually stopped that tax take from the very wealthy.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_02Such a good point. And then so then the final question we have, and again, I'm gonna read to you what your response was. So last time we asked you looking ahead to 2030, what change would you like to see in Canberra? This time we're gonna ask you looking ahead to 2036, because this is five years on. But really quickly, what you did say back then is that by and actually, and this reading this out did make me a bit sad when I was listening to it last night because I did think if only things went this way. So in 2021, you had said that by 2030, we'll be pretty close to having hit the 1.5 increase, and we will be suffering significantly from climate change. And those consequences will be and accelerating, and so we'll have a lot of pressures on us. And unfortunately, I think your sentiment there is probably too close to the truth than what I would have liked back then and now. Um, you've also said that but so then you did have a good butt, which is great. I love butts in these depressing sentences. We will have realized that we do need to change and that there is a preparedness to change, and whole new sectors will be built around the change. So we'll be finding better ways of delivering the same things that we have had before, and we'll be inventing new ways of doing things. And so you finished with saying there'll be very low, we'll be doing low impact things which generate a huge amount of enjoyment, and we'll have an experience-based society where arts and other things like culture, which are so important to our society, are valued more. So we've got four years to make happen, and then looking ahead to 2036, where are we going, Mark?
SPEAKER_00Well, I I've got to give full marks to my previous self because you know, like I I absolutely agree with those sorts of ideas that I expressed at that time. And uh and unfortunately, that forecast of climate change and you know building up of of impact was was pretty close to the mark, and and that's a shame that we haven't taken more action there. That general idea of moving away from sort of material and quantity-based metrics for you know, being a proxy for having a good life to things which are actually much more quality-based and well-being-based metrics, I think is a really important trajectory which we need to be thinking about. And and here in Canberra, we're in a great place to do that, I think. But it's really hard to do when we're growing at the rate that we currently are. So as we expand, the the stresses on our public systems, the stresses on our transport systems, etc., are just growing. And so we're we're effectively just substituting that quantity for what should be quality. And so if I had a a vision for Canberra out into the future, it would be as a as a city where we demonstrated how we could grow the quality of life for all of the inhabitants and also for the environment in which we live. And so that actually requires, I think, pulling us back on Canberra's growth. And to do that, we also have to pull back on Australia's growth because you can't control where people move in Australia in that, you know, in an arbitrary sense. And so, and so that's not an argument for xenophobia or racism, etc. It's actually an argument about showing the world how you can take a different pathway so that others can tread that pathway as well.
unknownYeah.
SPEAKER_01It's kind of boldness in that answer, Mark. I love so much of that. I love that you're willing to tackle something. And you mentioned last night that that's sort of been something to boo in the past, but it's so important that we see the link between between that growth that you mentioned and some of the problems that we're facing. Thank you, Mark. You're my environmental hero. Thanks again.
SPEAKER_00Thanks, Julie, and thanks, Jen, and and thanks for the opportunity to to talk with your audience base.