Season 4, Episode 2: Mike Mulvaney — The Gang-gang Capital of the World

In this episode of Local Environment Heroes, we talk with long-time Red Hill Regenerator Dr Michael Mulvaney about the extraordinary transformation of one of Canberra's much-loved landscapes — and the Gang-gang Cockatoos that helped reveal just how special it is.

Mike has spent more than 60 years playing, exploring, and learning on Red Hill, including four decades with the Red Hill Regenerators. What began as a small group of people caring for an overgrazed landscape has helped transform the Hill into high-quality box-gum woodland.

We talk about the Gang-gang Cockatoos that nest on Red Hill, including the volunteers who brave hot weather to scout the trees and find their nests. We explore what the Gang-gangs have taught the regenerators, the surprising knowledge that can emerge from paying close attention to a place, and the people who have inspired Mike along the way.

Most of all, Mike shares the joy of environmental regeneration — and what can happen when a small group of people sticks with a place, keeps learning, and gives nature a chance to recover.

Season Four hosts: Jennifer Pinkerton & Julie Boulton
Sound editing: Will Tinapple, Formation Studios
Partners: SEE Change & Conservation Council of the ACT Region

Local Environment Heroes is a Canberra Environment Centre podcast celebrating the people working to create a healthier, more sustainable and connected community.

Find out more and get involved: canberraenvironment.org

Follow the Canberra Environment Centre on Facebook and Instagram for upcoming events, workshops, and stories from our community.

Thanks for listening; environmental change starts with people. 🌱

Transcript

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SPEAKER_03 0:07

Today we're speaking with Dr. Michael Mulvaney, ecologist, conservationist, and longtime member of the Red Hill Regenerators. It's a volunteer group that's helping transform Canberra's Red Hill into one of Australia's most significant urban woodland ecosystems.

SPEAKER_04 0:22

So Michael spoke last night in the second impact hour. Unfortunately, Jen, I couldn't make it last night due to kids having to drop kids around and do things. But I am super interested to hear all about you, Michael, because I've heard that you are referred to as the dill on the hill.

SPEAKER_00 0:37

That's right. Might the school kids.

SPEAKER_04 0:41

I did feel a little bit about this. What's the dill on the hill? And the Red Hill regenerators. What is it that you've been involved in up at Red Hill?

SPEAKER_00 0:48

Uh so yeah, for four I've been playing on the hill for 60 years, and for the last 40 years, that playing has involved removing weeds, addressing erosion, encouraging the local school kids to be involved. And I find that if I come across as being non-threatening, it makes them become more ready to to listen to what I'm saying. So I just say, Oh yeah, everybody just calls me for the deal from the hill. So you you'd you'd either call me Michael or the deal, whichever you prefer.

SPEAKER_04 1:16

Wow, just forty years, and you've been playing on the hill for 60 years.

SPEAKER_00 1:20

Yes, yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:20

That is extraordinary.

SPEAKER_00 1:22

Yeah, it's a lovely place.

SPEAKER_04 1:24

So what what drew you to Red Hill in the first place?

SPEAKER_00 1:27

Well, um, my mother's best friend, Margaret Heap, had a house that adjoined Red Hills. Yeah. I lived in Yowalumla and we would travel over. I've got six brothers and sisters, and there were four heaps, so it was quite a crowd of us. And look, I was in the middle of the ages, so I didn't actually get to say exactly what we'd be doing. I was sort of more bossed around, but I always voted to go exploring and exploring on Red Hill and yeah, looking for snake skins and seeing what the ants were carrying, and if we could find a bird's nest or a frilled necklace or a bearded dragon, or yeah, that that was I I just love going up on the hill.

SPEAKER_04 2:07

Talk to us about what Red Hill looked like 40 years ago.

SPEAKER_00 2:10

Forty years ago, it was uh very, very weedy. So more than half of the hill was dominated either by woody weeds, and they were weeds that had been spread by birds from backyards of Forest and Deacon and things like firefilm and cantoniaster, and there was a lot of blackberries, and I've got plant called Rurin, which was a gift from the Scottish people, the Canberra people, those buddy Scots cheapskakes giving us a lady weed instead of a proper present. But yeah, that basically then if if if you took five steps on Red Hill, one of those steps would have been like a woody weed. It basically 20% of the hill was covered by woody weeds, particularly the northern part, which had a longer bordering with the suburbs like Forest, which was built in the 1920s. The southern part of the hill had a much heavier and longer grazing history, sheep and cattle. And it had a lot of uh agricultural weeds like thistles and whorehound and a thing called Burbaskin or lamb's ears. And again, that that the thistles were so thick no one could walk on Red Hill because it was just like walking through this prickly patch of horrible prickly thistles. Uh and we're talking hundreds and hundreds of square meters of of thistles all over that southern end. And look, people didn't see it as having any value other than as a sort of a an aesthetic landscape.

SPEAKER_01 3:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 3:32

And people were dumping rubbish up there, the people's back gardens extended into the reserve, so there were chuk runs and veggie gardens and yeah, tennis courts, and all sorts of things actually in the public land rather than on the private land, and people didn't seem to care at that point. Yeah. It was a bit of a mess.

SPEAKER_03 3:50

It sounds like a total mess. And I'm wondering what it was that made you think you could take on such a big project. Was that it must have been intimidating. Backyard wasn't big enough.

SPEAKER_00 4:00

I got in my youth I had a job where I was known as the hedge boy because I was really good at doing taupery on hedges. So I I always had an eye out for the hedges and their shapes, and you know, that they were beautifully trimmed and circles or peacocks or or whatever. And then when I was playing on Red Hill, I just noticed that all these woody weeds were straggly and yeah, messy, and there were hundreds of thousands of them, and I was thinking, God, they're gonna take over the place. So really it was uh recognising that these things shouldn't be here and they were out of control and someone needed to control them. So yeah, give it a go. Well, I never really gave much thought to how big a task it was. It was just started and just get stuck in, and uh you know, you can clear a little bit each day, so each day that there's progress. So that's what keeps you going. And originally, you know, it wasn't just me. We've had thousands and thousands of people over that 40 years help. And there are some times when, yeah, I feel, oh geez, I've had enough of this. But then someone else will step up and take the lead. And yeah, so it's it's been a community effort.

SPEAKER_04 5:12

So is your vision here, or or like when you looked at the weeds? I I mean, one, it's pretty extraordinary to go these weeds don't belong here. We need to take them away and return it to is the idea we're gonna return it to the time before the weeds came. So we're thinking like a hundred, two hundred years ago. Is that what you're aiming to do here?

SPEAKER_00 5:34

You've got to go back to the 1980s when we started.

SPEAKER_04 5:38

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 5:38

And at that stage, there weren't such things as endogent ecological communities. People hadn't come up with that concept. So so really the the type of values that people had then were a few rare species that had been identified. And there's a rare daisy on Red Hill, but Rinkawart, which was known back in the 1980s, and that was the only thing that was valuable about it by anybody. And so originally we thought, oh, we'll get rid of the weeds around this daisy. And then we started looking at the woodland and realised that it was just full of these native plants. We actually got to 250 plant native plants on Red Hill, and and a lot of those are are rare and uncommon, but that knowledge increased with time. And you know, originally we did focus on those woody weeds, and as we're chopping them out, like you take out a few thousand, and you notice that in every tenth one there's a bird's nest, and you start thinking, what are we doing to the birds? So you start to think, well, we're moving the weeds, but maybe we should also be thinking about the birds. And so you start to think, well, how can we help the birds? And then you find out that there's this really rare jewel beetle that was only known from one other site in the whole world, and it happens to be on Red Hill, so then you start thinking, well, what do jewel beetles need? So all the time you're learning more and more about this place and you're altering the way you're managing it as you go.

SPEAKER_01 7:08

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 7:08

So yeah, we we've never really had a a set plan per se, other than we love the hills, and we want to yeah, tr try and get it back to a sustainable functional ecosystem that people love.

SPEAKER_03 7:24

Yeah. Has that been the key to keeping the momentum over that period of time? I mean, 40 years is an amazing amount of time. Is it that seeing the species return or seeing species migrate and be there for a little while and move on?

SPEAKER_00 7:40

Is it like it's the the discovery and the abundance of life that Yeah, but also being open to new people. So that you know, we probably have a turnover of we have a membership of over a hundred from draw for the local community, but at any one activity we tend to have between five and fifteen people attending. And if you look at five-year intervals, the five to fifteen people are attending are there's quite a big difference between them. So there's this quite a lot of turnover and passing the baton on. Well, we're mainly old retirees, so a lot of us have died, a lot of us aren't able to to keep it up over that time, but we keep getting new people coming in. So momentum is uh more about conveying a task and enthusiasm for it and that sharing that love of the hill rather than yeah, being specific or or maintaining it any in in any one individual type of thing.

SPEAKER_03 8:40

And can you tell us about sorry to interrupt covered gone, you know, like yeah, so I was gonna say, could you tell us about some of the more extraordinary volunteers that you've had?

SPEAKER_00 8:51

Yeah. So the first one that comes to mind is a guy called Vernon, who he would go away to Africa for two or three months stints, and he had this terrible role where he was an expert in nutrition and he would decide which children could be saved and worth giving food and which ones couldn't, and you wouldn't put your resources towards them because the resources were limited. Um and you can imagine he'd come back shattered and he'd just say, Margot, I need to spend three months on the hill chipping thistles, and that was his way of getting his head back into shape. And he did a magnificent job of getting rid of the thistles on the hill. He did, uh Vernon, he was yeah, a delightful. And Margaret Bennetts is another one who um she if you were going to describe her, you'd say, a dear old lady, and she had that really polite, quietly spoken persona. But she actually grew up on a sheep property in Kuma, and she was used to working the she shearing sheds. In the early days, we used to get a lot of people if they didn't do volunteer work, they went to jail. And they'd come and work on Red Hill, and um Margaret would be their supervisor, and uh they try and shock her by using this really blue, foul language, but you know, Margaret had going up next to Shearers and she wasn't phased at all. And the thing about Margaret, even though like she was doing this into her 80s, she was really super fit. And these guys who were mainly drugasts, they were pretty unfit. So Margaret quickly showed them up about you know, this is how you chop down a fire thorn and get in there, and you'd see the guys thinking, oh, it's prickly and thorny, you're not wanting to get in there. But Margaret would shame them. She was just the ideal person to do it, yeah. Look, there are so many volunteers on the hill that you just oh yeah, just inspire you. It's yeah, you see the best of people.

SPEAKER_04 10:57

It's amazing that the Vanen story, I'm sure, with Margaret and the people who have come from jail or as part of the community service. That you know, what we're seeing time and time again, how important nature is for mental health. Could bring, you know, for some sort of a release or connection to nature is it's playing such an important role. Have you seen? Talk to us a little bit about how that's playing out and that whole community you've got up there.

SPEAKER_00 11:21

Yeah, look, like I say, we we've got a a large membership and a large people have gone through. And we have had people with quite severe mental illness come and help us and take lead roles. And yeah, it really is not only for your mental and physical well-being, and it's better than being membership of a gym when you start chopping helmets, you know, a thousand thistles in a day, that's up and down here. Yeah. Um but it's also good for your soul, and and we don't really mention that enough, I think, that that sort of spiritual connection. There's a really good song that Kev Carvery and Paul Kelly do as a juro. And one takes the Aboriginal's perspective to land, that's Kev, and Paul Kelly takes the the European view of the land, and and Kev Carverney sings, This Land Owns Me, and Paul Kelly sings, This land is mine. And it's just uh a different perspective. And you know, with that beautiful Ulla Rustakin for the heart, where the Aboriginal people ask us and invite us to work together with them. And the care for nature is just one of the things that we can really learn that it is about the land owning you. And when you have that approach, it really does nourish your soul when you're out there.

SPEAKER_01 12:40

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 12:41

And you yeah, it it's it's not the same connection as an abortional person has, but it is a spiritual connection, and so the soul, the physical, and and the head, you know, all get taken care of when when you're out there doing land care. It's it's actually person care.

SPEAKER_03 12:59

Mike, can you talk a little bit about that from a personal perspective? Because you've mentioned that you've been a bit depressed lately and uh you've found climate change like really overwhelming and Yeah, look, partly because you're on Red Hill and you in the early days we used to see things like Double Bar Finches, Diamond File Tails, Speck of Walbless every time we went on the hill.

SPEAKER_04 13:20

How special.

SPEAKER_00 13:21

It was. Look, and you get really depressed when you go to those same spots and you just don't see any birds at all, not even very rents. It's like they're disappearing. And you think, wow, why why isn't this a national emergency? Well why isn't this a priority? What you know, why are we still approving new gas and coal mites? And you think, you know, we're bloody hopeless. Um so yeah, it it's hard to turn yourself around, but like when you see people like Verden really, it really doesn't shame you, but it inspires you. And you think, yeah, we can get solutions. And look, if you look at what we've done on the 40 years compared to Red Hill then and what it is now, look, now it's it's one of the most important woodlands in the whole nation. That's because of our efforts. And I the gang gang actually is is a bird that we've become really studied on, and we we are becoming the experts on it. But gang gang is is an Aboriginal word. And you know, the none of all people had a relationship with the gang gang for tens of thousands of years. But under current scenarios, the gang gang's going to be extinct within 25 years, and that really makes you depressed. But then when you think, well, the nanomore people manage to do it, surely we can do it. Surely the gang gangs can be here in a hundred years' time. And you get optimistic that that can happen. And maybe I'm a member of Rising Tide, which is a climate activist group, and you know, the the name rising tide is saying there is a rising tide of people wanting to take action on climate change. And even if I feel depressed, I can be carried up by that tide. And yeah, that that happens a lot. Uh a lot of people are you know we all have our ups and downs, uh, but as we can get pulled up to to take positive action rather than sort of giving up. I think that's the that's the key point.

SPEAKER_04 15:24

Which again is going out to Red Hill and actually actively doing something to protect your part of the world, right? And placy love. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 15:33

Yeah. Look, and that does mean that by Cut Long Shore Restraud in 2018 we were trying to stop a development, and two of our members, Jenny and Jackie, noticed this gang gang feeding a chick in a hollow in the area where they wanted to put the development. And we said, Oh, how in how important's that? So we rang around us, asked people who would know, and they said, at that time I only knew one other gang gang nest in the whole of Australia. This is 2018, so you know, six years ago. Um and so it stopped the development, which was was great. But we then thought, well, how are we managing for the gang gang? You know, we've taken out all those woody weeds and we know the gang gang's like doing cutaneous and five terms. What does that mean? So we actually began a study on their diet and actually have finished that, and what's known about the gang gang's diet has come from our study, which basically utilised citizen science across Australia to take photos whenever they saw a gang gang eating anything, and from that we found out they've got a very Catholic diet of over 300 different food items.

SPEAKER_01 16:45

Wow.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

And that they actually during their breeding season they like to eat the pods of green wattles. So in Canberra it's silver wattles and uh red leaf wattles, Acacia rubrid or acacia delbata. And actually on Red Hill we'd encouraged those plants so then in large numbers. So we'd not knowing what we were doing, but we did exactly the right thing for the gang gangs. And then we started to find, well, we were watching the hollows, and on Red Hill we we found more hollows, we got up to six in the next year, and you know, we had members who would get their deck chairs and just sit and watch what was happening. So we became the experts on gang gang nesting ecology because no one had ever looked at their nests before. So now we're up to 138 nests across Australia, and we've published ten papers about their ecology, and it we're guiding their national conservation management, and we're being asked by all the governments to input into how they should look after the gang gang. And that's from a group of people who didn't know we even had gang gangs nesting on the hill less than eight years ago. Um not too sure how I got to this trend. But I was trying to answer a question. But I think the question was, yeah, your impact. But I our impact is not just on the hill. Yeah. Our impact can be nationally. Yeah. Yeah, we we were the ones who came up with the nomination for the yellow box baking threat gun woodland to be an endangered community. That took quite a few years of work. But that has meant so much to stopping development or if the development goes ahead, having to have an offset on what that offset has meant that it's it's thousands of hectares of reserved are reserved because of that. Now, someone else would have nominated eventually, but we actually did the work and got it up in time. So a small group of people can not only have a really massive effect locally, but actually ripples can come out from us, and and we don't quite know how they're going to land. Like when we started our gang gang work, we were asking questions that were specific to us, and we didn't realise that nobody else had bothered to to try and answer those questions elsewhere. So yeah, we became the world experts and unofficial spokesperson for gang gang. So that's why yeah, climate change I I I feel like I've really got to get out. Any opportunity I get, I've got to push for climate action because that's what the gang gangs need, because climate change is gonna wipe them out within 25 years under the current scenarios, and there's three reasons for that. One, we're getting more intense rainfall, and that's happening more regularly. So in 2003, we had 100 mils of rain in two hours. We never had that before in the ACT. Fortunately, that occurred in November when gang gangs are in their hollows. You can't see, but gum trees are like umbrellas, but they're sort of inverted. They have their branches going out, and the rain falls on the branches and runs down the trunks, and the gang gangs quite often have their hollows in the trunk, and if there isn't a lip at the top of the trunk, the water just flows in. So that one event we had six uh nests where chicks drown. Usually you get two chicks in a nest. Um, and that's gonna happen more often. When I was a kid, if the temperature got over 30 degrees, it was hot. Now most days in summer are over 30, and we get a lot of days over 35 degrees, which were unheard of like 60 years ago in Canberra. When the temperature hits 35 degrees, gangang hollows are about half a metre deep. And when usually they take about four weeks as an egg and eight weeks as a chick. Now, in that chick phase, it gets hotter than 35 degrees in their hollow. They can either cook to death in the hollow, and we've had that happen. Or they get so uncomfortable that they climb up that half metre to the lip of the hollow before they're ready to fly.

SPEAKER_03 20:46

And 'cause they're so uncomfortable.

SPEAKER_00 20:48

Because they're so uncomfortable and quite often they fall or they're pushed by their siblings because these this is usually the two of them when they're stretching their wings and they just haven't got the balance. Well, we have been able to rescue chicks on the ground and put them back up, but they're only of the hollows we know. So most hollows we won't know. It also happens with smoke. So if there's a lot of smoke around, it collects down into the hollows just because the smoke's sinking. And again, they get uncomfortable and come up and they die. So 35 degrees for smoke. And then when we had those fires in 2019-2020, it burnt 30% of the gang gang's habitat. The grampians, where there's an isolated population of gang gangs, their habitat's been burnt three times in the last 10 years. Which, if you're nesting in old tree hollows, it's killing the tree hollows, but also those fires are coming at a time when the gang gangs are nesting. So the chicks are going to be killed, parents are going to be killed, and if the um under current under best case scenario, those fires are going to become so regular and so intense by 25, by 2050, that dry sclare awful forest habitat that gang. mainly use just what will be unrecognizable because of the fires. So we really need to to get active. Look, it's been I've been retired for six years and the plight of the gang gangs it's basing me move into my second career. And that's I'm becoming a a career criminal, getting arrested at climate events. Um I've currently got charges against me but I may get off those because the police didn't collect evidence too well. But yeah, look, I'm prepared to go for jail because it really is that serious an issue. My father fought in the Second World War. He he flew bombers both my grandparents were in the trenches in the First World War. When you think they put their lives on their line not because they thought they were going to turn those wars around individually but they recognized that that it needed a a community effort to address a serious problem. And I just see climate change as being akin to the issues that that were evolved with those two world wars. And yeah, going to jail is is a lot less onerous than than what my father or grandparents um faced. So yeah I I just think we've really got to push and you know in in Canberra the very least we can vote for politicians who are serious about climate change and we can change ourselves. And it's amazing how good we've been at adopting you know solar energy becoming electrified using cars less and yeah I just think Canberra's an amazing place. And there are a lot of people like me who are who are just realize that you know we want a safe place for our kids and grandkids and we're not heading that way and we're just being ignored at those levels. So we've got to make it happen ourselves. Just like Red Hill was full of weeds and the government wasn't able to do anything by making a start we can actually turn things and and I really am a believer of the rising tide. It just needs us all to do little things and the change will happen.

SPEAKER_04 24:15

Wow I like I have no way I'd say I think we should have been videoing this because Jen and I have both got to use uh and I think Jen's struggling to talk um it's it's yeah I yeah don't know what to say up into podcast captions because we had all these questions Mike like how can young people some like someone who doesn't know where to start but feels overwhelmed by this stuff like how do they find their own path but I feel like you answered that one.

SPEAKER_00 24:46

But is there anything more to add before we Yeah look I haven't said much about Red Hill but yeah people should go for a walk because it is pretty close to what woodlands were like before Europeans came and stuffed things up. Look there aren't the the woodland birds but you do see beautiful flowers and you will see some birds and yeah a third of the world's gang gangs are nesting there that we know of. So yeah and we're always looking for people to help and we're monitoring rare plants we're doing lots of work so yeah it's it it is a woodland of of great beauty and and it it draws you in because yeah it does own you and yeah it it's a love relationship that we develop. So you come and join us.

SPEAKER_03 25:34

I love also that your love for Red Hill and the species that live there have drawn you to get more radical in your action that is such a cool part of your story. And like I bet you're an environmental hero to many people definitely to me now when you met you yesterday.

SPEAKER_00 25:50

Yeah who who No I'm the Dilphon get hell you see look forty years there were times while I was doing a PhD we had two young kids I had a full-time job I couldn't scratch myself to let I do things on Red Hill. Yeah and it was others who stood up there's a guy called Ian Anderson Ian and Sandy Berry they they just Ross Kinsland, Sue Ross, Wayne Fletcher they just have taken it up and and yeah I I've been able to come and go say look it's it's so they were your heroes? They're my heroes the ones who were doing it plus my father John Movaney and Bob Brown who both say Bob yeah look and they both did a lot to um save the Franklin and another place called the Research Bay and the my dad had sausage fingers a bit like like mine and he and he couldn't type. So actually I did a lot of typing for those campaigns. And it it's really quite inspiring just yeah how shoestring it was but how powerful it became and how it won in the end. Yeah and how they had a lot of knockbacks. We sent letters to I think 30 Australian botanists trying to get them to speak up for the botany of the Franklin River. Well I didn't send them I typed them and my father sent them and in the end they had to get Craig Bellamy who was oh he's a he's a he's a rugby coach. Yeah I've forgotten his name but his a his surname was Bellamy and he he was a a Pommy guy who did this television show about plants and he came and spoke for the Franklin. But yeah I was I was amazed that there weren't people at Australian universities at the time that were they willing to speak out. So yeah they they passed over to that and yeah those places are still there today. And actually I'm never going to visit them because they're wilderness and but it's really good to know that there are wilderness places. So yeah they're they're heroes plus the people who have put in the big time on on Red Hill.

SPEAKER_04 27:48

Beautiful ant I like I think we would totally elect you as president of the world if not president of Canberra or um chief minister next chief minister for Canberra I think would be ideal. If we were to do that if that was to happen what's one change that you would want to implement straight away yeah I'd I'd want the world to get serious on climate change.

SPEAKER_00 28:11

Imagine having a president in America who believes that's it's a hoax and and having an opposition that's acting as if it's a hoax. I mean who are these people how can they be elected it's just there's such powerful lobbies the the fossil fuel but you know I think their time's coming and their time's coming quickly and yeah it doesn't need me to be elected I I think people are going to kick those other people out fairly quickly and if Labour don't smarten out they're gonna have a big shock.

SPEAKER_04 28:41

Yeah yeah I'm just gonna quickly point out not that you can see this on the podcast here are my little family my little family of magpies get quite hungry in the afternoon. So think they come down to say hello they're serenading very few.

SPEAKER_03 28:56

Yeah they are and our last question is your vision for Canberra so if we look ahead 10 years to 2036 what's one change that you'd love to see actually I used to work for the ACT government and early on I I had the chance to take Simon Corbell from one meeting to another and in the car and this was early on he'd only just been elected.

SPEAKER_00 29:24

Yeah and I said Simon so what do you want to achieve for the environment thinking he was going to give me waffle but he said I want ACT to be 100% renewable power within three years. Whoa what oh we had a he told me three things but but that that was the main thing that that stuck out for me. So I just found that the fact that he could deliver that and that we got behind that and we really felt proud that we we were a city that got that happening and and he and Shane Rattenby worked so well together. And I think you know that that's what it needs you know gang gangs don't have political officiation. They they just want us to get on and do the thing and and I think that's what I'd like just Canberra's to be Canberra's and get on and and get it done and and again be a a shining light for the world because we we have been that and we can be it again you know we literally can get rid of all petrol cars within a certain type and do it in a way that that's fair. So yeah I I'd like us to to to really be seen as as a community that's showing it can be done it can be done fairly and actually you're better off for doing it just as the people who have gone up on Red Hill and weeded have nourished their souls and include their physical and mental wellbeing if we really got behind and addressed climate change we wouldn't have to be worrying about our kids' future we could be watching them grow and just enjoying them and you know that's that's where we need to be that's a beautiful way to finish thank you so much for calling on our podcast thank you thanks for having me